Communio Calling
Communio Calling
Immersions - Opportunities for Transformation
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In this episode of Communio Calling we talk with a well-known face in Good Samaritan circles and beyond, Monica Dutton, taking a look at cross-cultural immersion programs and their significance within the GSE community.
Based on the knowledge gained through Monica's experience and academic thesis, she shares the key components to foster transformative outcomes, for individuals, school communities and visiting communities alike.
This powerful conversation and a must-listen for those preparing for upcoming immersions, particularly as GSE's Ltyentye Apurte (Santa Teresa) and the Philippines immersions approach.
Monica Dutton's current role is working directly with the Sisters of the Good Samaritan as their Spirituality and Mission Animation Leader.
Welcome to Good Samaritan Education's podcast, Communio Calling. My name's Gabrielle Sinclair, and I'll be your host. Today's episode takes a look at cross-cultural immersion with a particular reference to our Good Samaritan Education programs. Monica Dutton, our guest, is connected to the long history of the programs prior even to Good Samaritan Education overseeing them. From her experience and her doctoral thesis, the contribution of short-term cross-cultural immersion to the formation of Catholic school staff, Monica Dutton will share the key elements which appear to foster transformational outcomes. Her wise counsel for all those who are shaping and leading immersion creates a superb conversation. I hope you enjoy. And as you probably know, our community calling podcast is grounded in sharing story and honouring connections and who we've been and who we're becoming and the diversity of who we are together. So if you don't mind, if you'd like to share some of your story with us, your influences, perhaps your family growing up, but maybe when you first encountered the Good Sam's.
SPEAKER_00My heart is very, very connected to Good Samaritan Education. So it's lovely to be talking to you today. So, as would be the case with so many other people, grew up in a very, very Catholic family. I was the eldest of six children, grew up in the 60s. So the Catholic landscape then, of course, was quite different to what it is today. And very, very much church-oriented, parish-oriented. Really going to church on Sunday was what you did. A lot of social activities were connected around that. It was very, I guess, traditional. Rituals, devotions were very important. And I guess it's, I mean, there are a lot of fond memories around it, even like the blue cloak of the Children of Mary, for anyone who might remember those sorts of things. Going back to all those sorts of days, I remember having to wear back in the day, still wearing mantillas, chamas, you know, all of those things that sort of shifted obviously after Patifant II. But it was a time that I really do remember very fondly having said that, there have been very, very, very many changes over the years, and that's also good to see as well. It's a mixed bag there, obviously. And in terms of Good Samaritan connections, my grandmother was actually taught by the Sisters of the Good Samaritan in a little town on the south coast of New South Wales in the late 1890s. So very long time ago. She was one of 10 children who were all educated by the Sisters of the Good Samaritan. Where was that, Monica? It's a little town called Maruya on the south coast of New South Wales. The sisters went there in the 1880s, I think, and were there for a very long time. So my grandma was very proud of her Good Samaritan education. And when the family moved to Sydney, she was also connected and she was connected to St. Benedict School, just down the road here from us at Glebe, down in Broadway. And she used to play the piano while the students would march into class. She fondly remembers telling stories about that. And she also learned business skills from the Sisters of Good Samaritan. She talked about somebody called Mother Coleman, I remember, who taught typing, shorthand, all of those sorts of business skills to help her and her sisters get job when they were here in Sydney. My husband was also taught by the Sisters of Good Samaritan in Adelaide back in the 50s. My daughter went to a Good Samaritan school, that would have been in the 90s. We had various other nieces and cousins who went to Good Samaritan schools, both boarding and as day students. But my own personal first connection, I guess, with Good Samaritan life, I guess you would say, would be when I went to teach at Mount St. Benedict College back in the early 2000s. And even though my daughter had been there previously, there's a very different experience of it as a parent in a school community to being a teacher in a school community. Yeah. So I spent many, many years. I think I ended up being there about 15 years at Mount St. Benedict, one way and another. So I think that's where I really first came to a connection with the Good Samaritan story and charism, got to know the sisters. I started to have more in-depth experiences of what the Good Samaritan charism meant and to the people in particular who lived it. So yeah, so I guess I'd have to say it would have been perhaps a bit over 20 years ago. Getting to be a while. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful. Can you remember back at a time in the Catholic bubble growing up of when it was no longer just to the faith of your family, but you had your own personal faith connection?
SPEAKER_00Interesting. I think that would be an evolving process. I guess it's a journey that really continues your entire life, obviously. But I sort of tend to think, I guess, proto-Catholic, as they say. So there wasn't ever that like great Damascus moment of realization that, you know, this is something that I've not known before. It's really a case of growing up with it, but like everything else, gradual dawnings and different doors opening up at different times. I think all of us really are blessed as we go along with different people who come into our lives who enable us perhaps to see a different picture, see a different story, perhaps encourage us in a way that we hadn't really thought about before. And I think it's the connections with those people who have open doors that really have led me, I guess, along the path to where I've ended up today. So to those people I'm very, very deeply grateful.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, you obviously went down the education route. What were the influences that took you down that path?
SPEAKER_00Probably being the eldest of six children. We played schools at home a lot. I think we all got different turns of being the teacher. But it was one of those things where it was something that I just really felt drawn to that I've always enjoyed enormously. I've always really appreciated the relationships with staff and with students. And it's interesting enough, I began it's probably a bit of a checkered career, really. But I began teaching primary school, taught primary for about 15 years. Then I moved into a CEO job and then moved into secondary teaching. And then from there I've taught at tertiary level, ACU, and BBI. So there's a little sort of bit of everything, I guess, along the way. But interestingly enough, when I had the CEO job, it was one of those things where you travel to different schools all the time. So you're really just the visitor. So I did that probably for about three years, I think. And towards the end of that job, I started to realize that what I missed the most was the wonderful want of connections of being in a school community and the powerful, profound really nature that school communities offer to those that are in them and offer opportunities for people to contribute as well. The CEO job was something where I went to three schools a day. So you went to a school, you traveled through morning, went to the next school, traveled through lunch. So you never actually belonged anywhere. But certainly what I realized towards the end of the job that I was really missing being part of a school community. I went to Mount St. Benedict after that, which was, as are old GSE schools, are wonderfully warm, welcoming, hospitable, you know, in the values. Like they were there, they were evident and they were tangible. I really enjoyed being part of that school community. I think it's something that, as a teacher, that really is so significant. Along with the teaching itself, it's really being part of a school community that is such an essential part of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's nothing that quite beats those day-to-day relationships that you build and grow and journeying with people, staff and students through that education process, but just being side by side on a regular nothing, nothing quite like it, really. Absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, Monica, your journey then took you out of the classroom again when you became part of Good Samaritan Education. We're going to talk a little bit about the immersion experience, student immersion, staff immersions, and where that kind of led. And you were part of the team that began the development of the Good Samaritan Education immersions, largely as we know them today. They traditionally included student immersions to Santa Teresa and the Philippines and staff immersion that rotated. And as you know, post-COVID emerging from that disruption, we're in a renewal phase of these programs. And it'd be great to hear a little bit about the original rationale about these initiatives and how they actually came to be.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Really, the whole idea of immersion predates all of us, actually. So much of the philosophy behind the Good Samaritan immersion programs really stems from the foundational elements of the tradition itself, right back to the parable, somebody stepping out of their comfort zone to assist another person who was not like them, somebody who was different, right through the rule of Benedict, the whole idea of welcoming strangers as price, the special, I guess, privileges, for want of a better word, hospitality that were afforded to pilgrims as they came by and the poor. Right to obviously John B. Polding coming to Australia, himself coming to a different culture, where he really went out of his way, I guess, to focus on people like the Aboriginal people, women, and convicts, who again were, I guess, almost subgroups within the early colony of Australia who really needed his support in huge ways. So I think really so much of the philosophy of Good Samaritan Education immersion programs really draws on so many of those elements of the founding story, as I said, right back to the parable, even. Interestingly enough, when I first became a part of Good Samaritan Education, I think one of the great advantages was the mission team was set up prior even to the existence of GSE. Prior to that, there was a Good Samaritan Education Council, and there were programs in place already. Catherine Slutter in particular was instrumental in trying to get the colleges to engage in programs where they linked with each other. So there were induction days back then, there were middle management, AP conferences, all of those sorts of things that were happening already way before GSE existed. I think to the main purpose of the programs really was to connect people in Good Samaritan schools, whether they be governance people, leadership people, principals, staff, students, parents, to really connect them with the contemporary mission and ministry of the sisters. And it really was a case of visiting the sisters in their communities and the communities that they worked in. As you said, there was a student immersion. Back in the day, it actually went to Vadooga. That was prior to the Santa Teresa experience. Then there was also a student experience of outreach, community outreach week, where the students all came together and stayed in the boarding house in Glee for a week and went out for each day.
SPEAKER_01I missed that one. That was so much fun.
SPEAKER_00Ah, that was a wonderful, wonderful experience. It really was, and wonderful for the students to be able to be together with that sort of common understanding of the philosophy behind why they were doing it. So that went for about 20 years. And that particular program was started by Sister Mary MacDonald, who has also started the first staff immersion trip to the Philippines. That was back in 04. So it's not a new program. And the community outreach program too went for about 20 years. So they're long-standing programs that I think had a very, very big impact on all of those who are involved in them over the years.
SPEAKER_01Sadly, the outreach program post-COVID is much harder to restart. Things have changed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. So many service sites these days really have changed completely how they manage volunteers. So some of those things, sadly, as you say. You just have to let go and reimagine. That's right. Originally, I guess, just getting back to your question, the idea behind the immersion trips, as I said, Mary MacDonald really was instrumental in getting them up and going. The trip that she organized first really was for principals and leadership people in Samaritan schools. And as I said, the first one was to the Philippines in 2004. I went on the next one, which was in 06, back to the Philippines again. From there, we then sort of started to develop, I guess. Meg Kayla and I then became part of the mission team, and part of our role then was to look at and develop immersion programs. So we did that and they expanded considerably over the years to involve student immersion trips, as we said, staff immersion trips, and then, of course, eventually a pilgrimage for governance and leadership people in schools. So originally the idea behind them was that some of them had a spirituality focus, some of them had a partnership focus, and some of them had a service focus. So it was really a case of looking at each program individually and how we might look at providing opportunities for people which really focused on one of those particular elements.
SPEAKER_01And as you said, the majority of the programs were particularly about engaging with the contemporary ministry of the sisters. That's how locations were derived that weren't just picked out of nowhere. Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think one of the most important things about immersions is that there is an ongoing relationship with the host community, the community that you're visiting. So clearly, the sisters of the Good Samaritan who are in ministry in those communities, they are part of the community. So developing that relationship, you're not starting from scratch, like some organizations who start and look to develop immersion programs. We were so fortunate in as much as every single place we went to, there was a very, very deep rooted connection already, simply because the work of the sisters that were there already. The relationships that really developed more deeply were probably between the staff who went from different schools, who then made their own connections with the sisters, which was lovely, and with people in the communities that they visited. And I know there are quite a number of teachers I know who have continued their relationship with some of the people in the communities that the sisters are in and go and visit them as part of their holidays. You know, it's it's it's a lovely connection.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, as you say, building relationships is a key component of the emergence. And often when we're forming groups to go, it's about forming the community that goes, and that's really important. However, as you've mentioned, that relationship with the community that exists that you're visiting is essential. And almost guarding that relationship and the impact of the visitors on that community is an essential part where it can be a blessing, not a burden. And so that ongoing relationship can be maintained and developed. When we bring people from each of their schools, it's the link back to the school and it's continuing that connection that the students are often hearing about these places and wanting to put flesh on the idea of the places to make sure that we keep supporting them as well.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a really important point to make the connection with the community that you visit, everything has to be done in dialogue. Nothing can be assumed, nothing can be what we think would be a good idea for that community. We're looking at it with Western eyes, and that's not the culture of the people who live there. Many, many things go on in communities that we really have very little understanding of. And to take our Western eyes into a different culture is not an appropriate way to visit a community. There's a lovely analogy, I guess you'd say, Roger Sherrode put together in terms of immersions, which he calls entering someone else's garden. And that also really formed the preparation sessions for so many of the immersion trips in the early days because it just provides a structure for people to understand what it would be like to enter into somebody else's space, somebody else's life. As I said, I mentioned dialogue. It's essential that people who are visiting host communities in whatever country it may be, that everything that is done with them is done in dialogue. There's some, unfortunately, many, many stories where people have gone in thinking this will fix a problem. As I said, we're looking through Western eyes, making judgments, making decisions on behalf of the people, which are clearly not appropriate. I'll just give you one example of that. Quite a few years ago now, there was a school, as many do change their sports uniform. So all of a sudden, the uniform shop has gotten hundreds of t-shirts that are the wrong colour, the wrong logo, whatever it might be. So they decided that they would pack them up and send them off to an overseas community in Asia. So all of these t-shirts got shipped off and clearly very well intentioned. However, what they didn't know and what they didn't realise was that community had a little cottage industry where some of the mothers had learnt how to sew. They, through microfinance, they had built sewing machines so that they could actually make uniforms for the kids in their local school. So by all of a sudden having hundreds of t-shirts donated, it upset the very, very fragile little cottage industry that these women had established with microfinance. So it's one of those things where even the best well-intentioned ideas may not actually be helped for that particular community. And I think it's so important that we always remember it's not our judgment to make. We need to very, very clearly be in dialogue always with the people who live there in terms of what is going to be beneficial for them. Just reminded me as I was talking then, Mary MacDonald, as I said, who began the staff admission programs, had a lovely little saying that we must approach this always with soft eyes and warm heart. And I think that is a lovely way of looking at it, that we go gently, we walk gently with them, and that we go always with soft eyes and a warm heart. And I just think that idea of visiting as gracious guests is a really lovely way to look at it. And I think if we remember Mary's words in that respect, I think it would be a lot more beneficial for the people that we visit.
SPEAKER_01That's beautiful. I often think when we're talking about hospitality with reflecting on it, we're often good at thinking about the giving hospitality, but we often don't stop to reflect about the receiving of hospitality and being the guest and being received and that role being so important in immersions that yes, you want to provide, and that's when we come into situations where often it's our privileged mindset coming in and to give, and we want to help and we want to, you know, be part of that, which is beautiful in some respects. But our primary role is actually to receive in those spaces and can move from there with dialogue, as you say.
SPEAKER_00I think too, so much of it is tied up with the fact that immersion has to be a three-phase process. It's not the trick itself that is actually the most important part. It's absolutely a three-phase process and it's an ongoing process. Very much so. The three phases really are the preparation period, the immersion itself, and also then the post-immersion phase. Each one is equally important and really you can't have one without the other. So in the pre-emersion phase, I guess you talk about the briefing phase. People call it lots of different things, but the entry into the idea of going on an immersion trip. And it's so important at that phase to establish the context for the trip that you are going on. You know, why are we doing this? Why are we taking these people on this trip at this time to this place? What are the reasons we're doing this? And I think it's really important to have real clarity about that on the part of the organizers and also on the part of the participants, as well as on the part of the people that we're visiting. I think they should be included in all of these conversations. We don't just turn up on their door and say, here we are. It really is important that they're engaged in the conversation right from the very, very beginning. And from that perspective too, it's really important that we establish that the context that we are in is a Catholic context. It's a good Samaritan Benedictine context. Things such as Catholic social teaching should be very, very, very front and centre in terms of all our preparation, particularly dignity of the human person, solidarity, subsidiarity, all of these elements need to be really clear in putting together a program. And the different activities that we do in the programs as we move through the 10 days or whatever it might be, need to be clearly reflecting those principles. And I think they need to be clearly articulated to the people on the trip. This is the reason we're doing this. We're not just making up an itinerary because, you know, we need to feel in the day.
SPEAKER_01We want to feel nice.
SPEAKER_00That's right. So it needs to be really clear to them, you know, what the principles are and where they are being evidenced in the daily itinerary that is being put together. A lot of these things are clearly very, very important. In our Witzmert and Benedictine tradition, obviously, the parable is central to our purpose for being on an immersion trip. We talk about elements of parable, elements of the rule, the stories of the sisters, the sisters in the place that we're visiting. As I said, Catholic social teaching is essential to underpin reasoning for our trips. Principles about that learning are really important on, well, the pilgrimage and also the staff trips. It's professional learning for them as well as a spiritual journey. So it's very important that we sort of really look at all those principles when putting together uh different elements of the program.
SPEAKER_01Well, I was going to actually move into that. So, from your own research and your first hand experience, what would you say are the elements for building an immersion program that really promotes opportunities for transformation? And I mean, you literally wrote the book on this. There's the Educator's Guide to Immersion, Formission, Formation, and Transformation through Immersion. So, what are your hot tips for actually building that program that's going to provide those stepping stones towards transformation for all of the participants?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. As I said, it's a three-phase process. First phase is the pre-emersion, the preparation, as I said, with those principles built into the preparation. The second is the immersion itself, and thirdly is the post-immersion. So in the immersion section now that ties in very well, again, you don't just take people somewhere and expect that things will just happen. They need to be planned, they need to be built in to the program before you start. Research would say. Something very important in that regard is that it's an authentic encounter, that you are actually having a personal relationship with the people that you're visiting. You've probably heard of volunteerism or drive-by, you know, immersions or whatever, where people literally sit in a bus and drive through a community, drive through a village or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Boyeurism.
SPEAKER_00That's right. Unfortunately, it can descend into that. A group might go in to build a wall, paint a wall, build a school, and actually have no engagement with the local people whatsoever and not realizing in some instances that they are actually not providing opportunities for the local labourers to actually do the work. And it always amazes me. I mean, there's no way in the world here you would get students to paint a wall or to build a school, and yet for some reason they go. Overseas and think that they're quite able to do that. Various people have different ways of doing things, and that's fine, but I guess we need to be clear in our good Samaritan context why we're doing what we're doing. And one of the biggest things is that authentic encounter, that activities are set up in such a way that dialogue is promoted and cultural understanding goes both ways. So many times you hear when you know when you're leaving a community or something like that, that they'll say, tell our story, please tell our story. And so often, really, that's what they want for their story to be heard. That authentic encounter with the local people is probably one of the most important things. Another really important thing in setting things up is that it has a meaningful context. In our context, that is the Catholic Good Samaritan Benedictine tradition, to be viewing that as the context for our trip is actually really, really important. Other things that are also really, really important are providing opportunities for prayer and reflection within the group and personal, whether that's you know a debriefing time, a choir time, a journaling time, time at the end of the day. Remembering always that people respond differently to everything. There will be people experiencing culture shock. Whether you see it or recognise it or not, there will be people on the trip experiencing culture shock. For a lot of people, this is the first time that they have stepped out of perhaps their own country, let alone into a very, very different cultural space.
SPEAKER_01They don't necessarily know that that's what they're experiencing either. That's true. Reflection built in is essential to honour where people are at and for even to give them time to catch up with themselves.
SPEAKER_00And that's why it's really important, as I said, that there are different methods of reflection used. Some people like to journal, some people like to just have some quiet time to themselves. But it's also important to have collective sharing as well. Because as you said too, the important thing is sometimes too that your own experience is sometimes validated by hearing somebody else express it. Sometimes people don't really want necessarily or can't share what it is they're experiencing or feeling. But in shared reflection, perhaps at the end of the day, they might hear somebody else say something and think, oh, it's okay that I'm feeling like this. Somebody else feels like that. Isn't that great? So there are lots of different ways to engage in the reflection process.
SPEAKER_01And I think sometimes when we add free time into programs, that sometimes participants fill that space. They continue to do more and fill that free time space and they reflect later. It's like I really just needed to not do more and just to be and create some own personal reflection time. So it's really hard to find that balance as a leader to say, well, yeah, don't fill all your time.
SPEAKER_00That's true. Sometimes too, people underestimate how exhausting an immersion trip can be. I mean, there are new sites, new sounds. If you're in a new space, sometimes the climate is not something that you're used to, the pace of the day. And even for some people, just engaging with people all day is exhausting. And I think sometimes people do underestimate how exhausting it can be and how important it is actually to factor in downtime reflection time on an immersion trip. As you say, sometimes some people just that little space for their head to catch up with their heart, let's say, so that it's an experience that can be internalized rather than just rushing from one activity to the next. I think sometimes full-on packed programs on immersion trips or pilgrimages really make it difficult for people to process the experience to a point where they can actually make sense of it and to see how it makes sense in their own lives. And interestingly, with the research too, there's Mesero has transformative learning theory where it's that whole experience of being on an immersion trip or let's say a pilgrimage, where the change happens in such a way as that there is a certain process that needs to happen, I guess, so that people do have a transformative experience. As far as that goes, we can only really provide the opportunity, I guess, and set up a program in which you would hope that people are transformed by the experience. However, it is a personal experience, obviously, for each person. But the way Mesero describes it, there are four stages to transformation. And one of them is that a person has, he calls it a disorienting dilemma. Sometimes on an immersion trip, you will see people and they will talk about having this light bulb experience. You know, the love goes on, something switches, something changes, something happens, an internal shift, perhaps. And for different people, that will happen at a different time on the immersion trip. And nobody else may even be aware of it. But for that person, it has been an amazing shift or an experience that they've had. And once they experience that, it's irreversible. They can't go back. So whatever the experience may be, and you can't set those experiences up, but you can set in place a program where opportunities are more likely to occur for that to happen. So transformation really is that disorienting dilemma. From there, people need to critically reflect on it, which is why it's so important that we have reflection time. They then need to engage in rational discourse about it, where they try again, as I said, to process what it is that's happened and then finally needs to impel them to some sort of action. And this is why so often when people come home from an immersion experience, they want to change the world. They've been to the mountaintop, they've seen the light, and they really want to share that with everybody. It's almost like they can't understand why people don't understand, why they're so excited and they're so passionate and you know they're going to save the world. So that's why, again, the post-immersion phase is also really, really important that these people who literally have had a life-changing experience in many cases need somewhere to put it. They need guidance. So often when people come back to school, staff and students, they want to raise money, they want to do this, they want to do that, which is all fabulous. But it needs to be properly managed. They need to, rather than go on individual crusade to try and do something for their community, they need to understand that there are a lot of things already in place that they can also be a part of and contribute to.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because the individual, I mean, not every individual, but some individuals can often lose that energy when they can't funnel it somewhere. And so having the understanding that there are places to funnel it rather than going it alone can often sustain that energy a lot longer, too.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's right. And also most schools clearly have been in this position for many, many years. And there are already things happening within the schools that support this. The other thing to remember is too, a lot of people still experience culture shock even after they come back. And for some people, it doesn't even occur until after they get back. So support for people who have been on immersion trips is essential. And it's one of those things where too, immersion trips have short, medium, and long-term impacts. So that short-term impact can generally go for around about, let's say, three months, where everybody, they're really high and they may maintain that energy or they may drift off. It depends literally on the person. And then there's more of a consolidation phase and then moves on to, you know, a sort of more long-term, lifelong, I guess, phase. But I think it's one of those things where the experience never leaves them. People talk about the fact that if they talk to somebody else, for example, who's been on an immersion trip, it takes them back in a heartbeat.
SPEAKER_01I know. Their faces come alive again. It's wonderful to see, oh, we can have this in common. We can talk, we know where you've been, we can understand that we live it anew again.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And this is why it's also really important that staff and students do have some way, as you said, to channel this sort of incredible energy that they have when they get back. Now, whether it's reporting back to a year group or a homeroom group or whatever, or whether it's organizing a particular activity in support of the community that they've just visited, whether it's reconnecting with that community in some way, whatever it might be, it's important that they don't just come home from the emotion trip and that's it, end of story. There must be ongoing debriefing and there must be some way within their community, their school community, where they can channel this energy, this activity, this passion, so that they're able to process the experience in such a way as they don't feel that it's sort of left them behind, so to speak. They really do need to be, I think, supported within their communities. The communities that have sent them on this trip or selected them to go on the trip, that they then, I guess, embraced by that community when they come back in terms of opportunities to tell their story and to engage in a meaningful way. And that sometimes the passion that they have is actually channelled or guided into something that will be productive and useful as opposed to perhaps a singular crusade.
SPEAKER_01And it's the beauty of certainly the Good Samaritan Education immersions that there is that ongoing connection. Majority of the schools are raising funds on an annual basis for these communities and send funds through the foundation. So there is inbuilt opportunities that exist. There is opportunity already there. It's just a matter of helping guide them and supporting them in facilitating that. Well, in a post-COVID world, there's been quite a shift regarding personal and professional appetite for risk. And knowing the communities and the places which Good Samaritan Education sends our immersion to, I wonder if there's some advice you would give helping leaders, decision makers, and participants manage expectations, particularly regarding the capacity of these communities to host them.
SPEAKER_00That again is a really important one and again goes back to dialogue with the community. Certainly, there needs to be a very realistic expectation of what is possible in the communities that you're visiting. I think we need to remember always that these communities often have very finite resources, whether that may be power, whether it may be water, whatever it might be. I remember staying in a small village up in Timor Lest at one stage, and we were staying in the main area of Dili and then went up into where the sisters had a community in Relaco and asked the girls not to wash their hair while they were up in the village to wait until we got back down to Dili. Well, for some of them, that was a real struggle. It was amazing, really. But I think it's just so important that we are aware and respectful of the situation in each particular place that we go. Some of the places, as I said, I think it's unrealistic to expect, for example, that you would have a homestay, or to expect that you would teach in a classroom. We need to remember that sometimes what the expectation would be here is a very similar expectation to what would be visiting one of our communities that we visit. There really wouldn't be probably too many occasions where, except for a language, for example, cross-cultural sort of homestaying that respect. But when we go and visit a community, everything is at the invitation of the local people. There should be no expectation that you necessarily visit or stay in their house. Sometimes that's great and it's helpful and it's wonderful. And again, in dialogue with the community is fine. But just as here, we have deadlines, we have curriculum outcomes that we need to meet. And if you've got um visiting teachers there for a week, that really sort of interrupts the flow of your teaching. Yeah, you just don't down tools and go on a different trajectory for the week necessarily. Exactly. In consultation with the local teachers, it may be really worthwhile for them to have some input about, you know, Australia or what happens in Australia, for example. And of course, when you talk about expectations of visiting, there are cultural sensitivities really that need to be considered, perhaps about the way we dress, our behaviour. I think a lot of these things perhaps are all obviously part of the preparation programme. And if people feel that they're not able to manage local cultural expectations, perhaps this is not a place for them to visit at this particular time. We really need to be very careful, actually, about cultural sensitivities in particular. And I think sometimes as Australians, the way we dress, the way we behave is not necessarily the way that's appropriate within a host community. And I think it's often really important that we remember that as well.
SPEAKER_01And sometimes it's the simplicity of accommodation that's available so that you can be in close proximity to a community that you're visiting. Those kind of capacities that are around a community are important to understand as well. Well, of course, managing expectations is largely about the information that you provide, as you were saying, for part of that briefing process, but also at a selection point in the school, as you're saying, there might be people that it's not appropriate or it's not necessarily for them. And so how the dialogue happens at a school level when people are being chosen or invited to participate in the emotions is also an important stage as well.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, absolutely. And of course, each school has its own process for selection of staff and students to go on these trips, which is clearly as it should be. It's their prerogative and their decision in terms of how the selection process happens. And obviously, they're the best place for people to know their students and to know their staff and to know how things are going to play out for the various people involved. So it's a really important process, and I'm sure each school would have their own different criteria for that. And just I think a really good thing that each school is able to articulate to their school community, to their parents, carers, you know, leadership, etc., how it is that selection process occurs. Usually it's a very transparent process and really important that everybody understands what it is. The risk appetite has changed significantly, certainly since COVID, but also since immersion trips began probably over 20 years ago. The world has changed, the world has shifted. And the risk appetite for sending people, even on any sort of excursions, let alone overseas trips, is significantly different to what it was. The responsibility is governance, leadership teams, principals, staff, etc., to parent parental expectations, as well, as I said, as the expectations of the community we visit. Really, really important. Of course. I think it's really important too that that, as we talked about, relationship with the community we visit is developed and maintained over time. I always sort of say if you say goodbye to them, and then the next thing they hear from you is when you want to go back and visit 12 months later, that's not an appropriate relationship. We need to keep in contact with them and in touch with them rather than just when we decide we'd like to go and visit again and take some more staff or students there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, it's a tricky one. One of the things you mentioned quite early in our conversation about one of the reasons that programs existed or begun was to also draw connections between the schools and creating communio across Good Samaritan education. I wonder if it also plays a part in the transformation, that connection across schools in your experience.
SPEAKER_00One of the other elements that contributes towards a transformative experience is traveling with like-minded people. And that is certainly something that really contributes to the transformative process. So essentially, people who are, let's just say, coming out of the same charism, people who have a similar understanding of why we are doing the trip, what's the purpose of it, if there's a shared understanding of that, it is much more likely that a transformative experience will happen. Also, in as much a supportive group, so that when people are perhaps going through a difficult day, an experience that they're having trouble processing, that there are people in the group who understand where they're coming from, how they might be able to debrief with them, provide them with opportunities or a space, a safe space to process whatever it might be is actually a really important element of an immersion trip as well. By extension, people who are from the same Good Samaritan schools would have a very clear understanding of each other in terms of how they would understand the trip, how they would see supporting each other on a trip.
SPEAKER_01And it is that every trip is different, every community that travels together is different. So it is always having that listening ear to navigate together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's very true. Immersion group traveling together needs to be a community, that they are also a community, a community visiting a community. It's important that they still understand that they need to be taken out of their comfort zone. To go on an immersion trip and just talk to the person that you came with from your school for the whole time is actually not really helpful for anybody. You're not learning anything yourself and you're certainly not contributing to the community of the group or the community that you're visiting. Numbers on emission trips do need to be managed well to be able to have that transformative experience. But I remember one particular pilgrimage that we went on. There was one person in the pilgrimage who decided that they're going to sit with a different person at every single meal on every single day. So that they were talking to someone different all of the time. And that sort of generated that practice within the group. And it was wonderful. It was lovely. Nobody ever felt left out. Everybody always felt part of it. And it's a really supportive way, I guess, to look at being community.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because sometimes when we're out of our comfort zones in a program, when we are able to make a shift and find parts of the program where we can be comfortable, we sometimes gravitate to the same people or we sometimes gravitate to where it's a bit easier. And that shift of making sure that we are connecting with everyone and that we're sharing that experience across the whole community actually does then create a comfort zone that's bigger than the one that you had initially, if that makes sense, because the community is doing it together. Just making that extra leap of faith of sharing beyond that initial comfort zone actually bears fruit across the whole community.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Definitely.
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, it's been so wonderful to talk to you, Monica. And from your wealth of experience and your research into immersion experience across lots of different communities and different age groups, it's been great to have your insights and to know that all of that wisdom has been built into our programs as you as you've been talking. It's like, oh yes, we're still getting it right. We're still on the right path. And of course, every program always we need to keep on top of things and dialogue and be in tune with the changing realities of the communities that we're taking on immersion, but also the communities that we're visiting, because that is not a constant and that dialogue is important to continue at every stage.
SPEAKER_00I agree exactly with what you said, and I think that's why, too, evaluation of the programs is so important. Evaluation from our participants, but also evaluation from the community that we've just visited. And I think sometimes maybe that element gets a little bit lost sometimes. How the experience was for us is one thing, but how it was for them is also really, really important to have an understanding of and just where your head is. And that's absolutely understandable. But we're so busy sometimes organizing trip, organizing passports, you know, getting the itinerary done, the buses booked, you know, whatever else needs to happen, accommodation. That understanding of how it is for the host community, we don't really sort of remember sometimes until we actually get there. As I talked about a three-phase process in terms of preparation, immersion, and post-immersion. That's just as important for the people we're visiting as it is for the group.
SPEAKER_01Relationship, relationship, relationship at every stage.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you, Monica. Well, before I let you completely off the hook, I always ask our podcast guests if they have a favorite quote from the rule of Benedict. Now it might be the one that pops into your head today, it might be one that you sit with often or your favourite of all time. But would you like to share with us a quote and why you've chosen that today?
SPEAKER_00I do. Running on life's path with the inexpressible delight of love. I should be able to tell you which chapter it's from, but right this second I can't. Yeah, it's from the end of the prologue. It's one of my favorites. Thank you. Yeah, yes. Running on the path of love with the inexpressible delight of love. Yes, that's something I always go back to. There are so many beautiful, beautiful quotes, obviously, from the rule of Benedict. I think that's my favorite one.
SPEAKER_01It's such a beautiful image, like you can really kind of imagine it. Well, thank you very much, Monica, for being with us today and sharing your wealth of wisdom. Thanks, Gabrielle. It's been lovely to talk to you. Soft hands, warm heart. The words of Mary MacDonald. Certainly a wonderful mantra for all those working towards immersions and going on immersion. I hope the conversation today provided a wonderful food for thought and reflection on immersion practices and participation in your community. The connection and transformation of participants of our GSE schools when they come together are always larger than the sum of their parts and a joy to foster and be part of. As you ponder our conversation and continue along the path of your day, may the transforming table of hospitality be wide so that you may know what it is to be received, and you may go and do likewise.
