Communio Calling
Communio Calling
Towards Integral Ecology
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Ten years ago today, 24 May 2015, Pope Francis's letter to the world about Care for Our Common Home, Laudato Si', was born. In this episode our host Gabrielle Sinclair is joined in heartfelt conversation with Jacqui Remond and Beth Riolo. Recorded days before the conclave which elects Pope Leo XIV, they reflect on the legacy of Pope Francis as a 'Pope of Creation' and our ongoing journey towards integral ecology.
Jacqui Remond is lecturer at ACU and Co-Founder of the global Laudato Si' Movement. As the Co-Chair of the worldwide 'Schools Working Group’ of the Laudato Si' Action Platform, she is passionate about accompanying communities to live an Integral Ecology through a culture of care for all creation.
Beth Riolo is an educator, Good Samaritan Benedictine Oblate, and Board Director of St Mary Star of the Sea College. With over 35 years in Catholic Education, she is currently the Professional Officer for Environment and Liturgy (K-12) for the Diocese of Wollongong.
You can learn more about the 10-year anniversary celebrations of Laudato Si' here: https://laudatosimovement.org/news/laudato-si-week-2025/
Welcome to Good Samaritan Education's podcast, Caminio Calling. My name is Gabrielle Sinclair, and I'll be your host. Our episode today welcomes Jackie Raimond and Beth Riolo to a heartfelt and deeply energizing conversation which was recorded in that liminal space between Pope Francis and Pope Leo. Our topic provided a space for reflection on the legacy of Pope Francis and the hopes on this ongoing journey as pilgrims of hope in this Jubilee year. But a little bit about our guests before we jump into the conversation where they'll share some of their story as well. Beth Riolo was born and raised in Wollongong on the traditional lands of the Darwal people. Beth is a good Samaritan Benedictine oblate who is committed to living in relationship with God, universe, and neighbour. Beth has dedicated over 35 years to Catholic education within the Wollongong Diocese. Currently she holds the position of Professional Officer for Environment and Liturgy within the Catholic Life Education and Mission Team. Beth is also a board director for her alum, St. Mary's Star of the Sea. Beth is deeply connected to making religious education and Catholic school communities vibrant and meaningful for both students and educators. She actively supports schools in interpreting the science of the times to cultivate environments characterised by justice, inclusivity, sustainability, and hospitality. Jackie Ramond is a lecturer in the Faculty of Theology and Philosophy at the Australian Catholic University with expertise in ecological conversion and integral ecology. Jackie is a co-founder of the Global Ladato Sea Milk Movement and an inaugural member of the LSM Global Council. She co-chairs the Global Education Sector Schools Working Group on the Ladato Sea Action Platform. Jackie served the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference as National Director for Catholic Earthcare Australia, developing partnerships and ecological conversion initiatives across Australia. Jackie is passionate about accompanying communities to live and integral ecology through a culture of care for all of creation, which necessarily includes governance, spirituality formation, ethical practice, and community relationships. Jackie is currently undertaking her doctoral studies in education, researching transformational learning, dialogue and integral ecology. So welcome, it is wonderful to have you both with us. And as you may or may not know, communio calling is about story, about being intentionally grounded in story to really honour the fabric about who we are, our connection, that incarnational reality that connects us all. So we start with story each time. So I'd like to invite you to share some of your story, and I'm not sure who'd like to go first. Sharing a bit about your influences, your family growing up, and perhaps where you first encountered the story of the Good Sam's.
SPEAKER_02I'll kick it off then. Thanks, Beth. That's all right. Well, I'm born and bred in Wollongong. A beautiful place between the mountains and the sea. I think I've grown up with the best of the bush and the best of the ocean. It's been very much the environment that I've grown up in has been quite a beautiful place. My parents, who I'm fortunate to still have in my life, Kevin and Leone, they were both school teachers. And so perhaps my whole career in education was influenced by my parents. I've got an older and a younger brother. I'm a middle child, but I always think I'm not a typical middle child because I'm the girl, so I have my own space. I very much, I think if I look at my childhood, I grew up in the outdoors. We were in very sporty family. I was involved in surf club, little A's, tennis, then I was in Brownies, girl guides and things. So had lots of really lovely experiences of joy and physical activity. It was a busy childhood, I'd say. And it was happy. My parents gave my brothers and I lots of different opportunities. We had lots of opportunities to travel. I think I got the travel bug from mum and dad. We went on holidays a lot when I was a little person. Mum and dad, I think, put a lot of stock in that, giving us experiences and helping us to sort of see beyond Wollongong, I suppose. I know I was very fortunate to experience other places and other cultures and peoples and other ways of living when I was reasonably young. And it has set me on a lifetime desire of travel and to see what's out there in this wonderful world we live in. And I suppose, in terms of my association with the Good Sam's, that began when I was four years old, when I rocked up at St. Therese Wool and Gong. And it was a primary school that was run by the Sisters of the Good Sams. And I vividly remember my darling second grade teacher, Sister Peter, who mysteriously, when she came back after Easter holidays, was then Sister Judith, because that was in the time. Judy was beautiful. I loved Sister Judith, but also remember all these other colourful characters: Sister Melda Mary, Sister Rafina, Sister Therese, Sister Eusebius, they were all very interesting people in my childhood. I think I then continued that connection with Good Sam's when I went to high school at St. Mary's Star of the Sea in Wollongong. And think the education and formation I received at both Good Samaritan schools really has been a great gift to me and set me on a path. And that connection to Good Sam's continued then when I went into education and I had the opportunity in late 1990s. I attended a week-long spiritual formation experience called Berrica, run by a Good Samaritan sister, Sister Anna Wallow, and her team that included other Good Sam's, Sister Margaret Ann Kelly, Veronica Griffiths. And I'd have to say that experience was life-changing for me. The sense of God, church, community faith of that experience was really quite amazing. Then subsequent courses with Anna, and we brought that to Wollongong because I work in Catholic education. So this connection with Good Sam's was deepened even more so. And then I became an oblate of the Sisters of the Good Samaritan in the early 2000s because I knew I wanted to deepen my connection with the Sisters. I knew I didn't have it in me to be a full-blown sister, but I did admire the sense of community, the Benedictan spirituality really spoke to me. And when I looked at what it meant to be an oblate and to immerse myself in the rule of Benedict, it was really an obvious step for me to make at that time. So that's probably enough, I think.
SPEAKER_01A bit of who I am. No, thanks for sharing both. One of the questions I often ask when people are telling their story, do you remember a time when your faith was your own and if there was a specific moment that you can remember that was like this is mine rather than family?
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's a really interesting question. I'd have to say, probably when I was around about 16, 17, when I went to Antioch, a very pivotal experience. And I think was at that age, you're seeking your own way of looking at the world and things. And I would say, because I made a choice to continue to delve into my faith with my peers and with other people. And then working in Catholic education, making the decision I wanted to be a teacher that taught in a Catholic system. I wanted to teach RE. It was important to me. So yeah, that's probably round around that time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Great. Thanks, Beth. Thanks for sharing. It's always wonderful to hear the stories of how people come to where they are now. Well, Jackie, do you want to jump in and share us a bit of your story?
SPEAKER_00Sure, sure. Yeah, it was great to hear Beth's. And we've known each other a long time, but there's still so many new things we learn about each other, which is gorgeous. And I think there's some parallels you might hear in my story as well. So I grew up in a bayside suburb of Melbourne. So we were on saltwater country there, and my mum and my dad were obviously a great influence on me and my two sisters and my brother. We had a lovely little holiday place to go to called Invalu down on the coast, and it was just like a caravan spot that we would go to for weekends and holidays and things like that. That was a real joy, and my parents would talk to us about their desire to see more of Australia outside of the city space and country. And so when I was 12 and 13, we went on this big trip around Australia. So it opened up all of us to the diversity of ecosystems and communities of life and places of worship because, of course, we were going to someday mass together. My father was raised Anglican and my mum Catholic, and we were raised in Catholic schools as children. And it was just an amazing experience because they didn't have the answers about why things were the way they were on this trip around. We were learning together. We did some school by correspondence, and we also attended a local school when we lived in a place for a longer period of time. So one of those places was in Daintree, and it was amazing to go to a public school, a secondary school, and my younger sisters were at the little local Daintree primary school. And I think you know, coming back to Melbourne was a big decision as well because there was a sense of great connection to places. Mum and dad worked in some places, like in Daintree, and it really captured our, you know, attention in a way that was more than just a nice place to visit. So we did settle back in Melbourne because of our grandparents and connections there. But I felt going back to the same school that I'd been at before we left, that I was very much changed. I looked the same, but I felt like a very different person. And I remember my best friend saying things to me like, you're a nature girl, you're a you know, things like that. And I was like, Oh, is that what it is that you notice about me? I couldn't see that because I'd just been in the stream flowing along with mum and dad and brothers and sisters. But I did have a huge curiosity to understand what I had observed and been immersed in. And so subjects that were really important to answer some of those questions were religion and science. So those were the things that I pursued. And it was actually, I was reading in year 11, we had an assessment in religion that we had to do our own investigation, and I picked up a book on Mary McKillop and read about her, and I found her to be pretty amazing and an inspiration in terms of teaching, which is something I'd thought about doing earlier when I was much younger, but it really instilled in me that sense of being able to make a difference. And as a young girl, that was really important, I think, for other young women as well. So I was always passionate about that journey. I was at a Daughters of Our Lady of the Sacred Heart College secondary school. So I've got my Ulsch with me all the time. I was, you know, going back thinking, when did I first meet the Good Sands? Because of course I know many now. But I think the very first sister or sister, so it was Sister Jill O'Brien. She was campus minister for us at Notre Dame University Broome campus. After I'd lived there in the late 90s, I returned there in the early 2000s with my husband. After we married up there, we settled for a bit and we were wanting to start a family. And Sister Jill was there. One of the projects that the bishop had asked her to do was to explore setting up or redesigning or renovating the current Cathedral of Broome, which is really a fibro church structure. So her process with engaging the whole community on that was really quite exceptional, quite synodal, as you would imagine, and very, very educational too. So she invited me to make a particular contribution through the lens of ecology to the design of that and make suggestions. And that has never happened in terms of the project, but she put her heart and soul into that. And I thought she was pretty special, and she was there with Sister Carmel Poser. So the two of them were like a beautiful team together. So I noticed them, and it wasn't long after, might have only been a year or two later, that I was invited to the role of directing Catholic Earthcare Australia. And when that happened, I was introduced to a gorgeous Good Samaritan sister, Sister Monica Sparks, who became a very dear friend. And she was like the godmother of this story of ecological conversion with Catholic Earthcare Australia. And so she became a dear friend, someone who accompanied me on the journey as a human to share it with a woman. And she got to know my family very well. She would come to Manley, where I live with my family and spend time with, you know, the lilies. I mean, they're bigger now. So it was just such a gorgeous time. She was so affirming and encouraging and supportive of the work I was doing as a mother, as well as the professional work I was doing. And when she would do her work of ministry in, you know, Western Australia in remote stations where she was placed to do pastoral ministry work, she would always write to me. So we have this string of letters between each other, which is absolutely gorgeous. And so, yes, it was a gorgeous friendship. She, of course, sadly passed away in 2018. So it was about a 10-year journey we had together in her very senior years as an elder. And you know, some of my favorite memories of her are things like being on an eight-day immersion experience to bring together the social sciences and theology and Catholic social teaching. And she would be with us on the journey and then she'd say, Don't mind me, I'm just going to go outside because at this time I know I need to move and I'm going to do some dancing. And we'd say, Right. You know, do and it would just open the spiritual realm in our embodied sense. And she just knew how important that was. Yeah, I miss her dearly. And I just think, yeah, the good Sam's are awesome.
SPEAKER_01What a lovely introduction and gateway towards the understanding uh the good Samaritan Benedictine tradition and story through Monica. Well, thank you for sharing parts of your story. I think we'll um as this conversation evolves, a different element will continue to come through. And of course, at this time, we're only just two weeks after the passing of Pope Francis and the conclave begins just in a matter of days. So, in our conversation about moving towards an integral ecology, I thought we might start with Francis and invite you to share your own reflections perhaps at this time on the life of Francis and this legacy that we need to continue on the journey with.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's interesting, Gabriel. There's been so much commentary around Francis. It's been overwhelming almost. And so I almost think my own words are superfluous. What can I add to it? But I think the overriding thread that I think is pretty common amongst all the words about him is that it's Francis's pastoral sensibility, I think. He seemed to be a man that when you were in his orbit, he was very present to you. Like he smiled a lot. You know, enjoy the gospel. It was radiating from him. Now I know Jackie will speak about it probably because she's had the opportunity, the privilege to have actually been in his presence, but just even from photographs and from you know videos and footage and things of him, it radiates. He was a good man. I'm very sad at his passing, also, but I'm grateful in the remembering and honouring the legacy of what a remarkable man he was. And he was a remarkable pope. I've been around since Paul VI's days, not that I would have had much of a knowledge of that when I was a child. Then we had John Paul for such a long time, and then Benedict, but I'd have to say that it's Francis that has really, really captured my imagination and has affected my work life in a very significant way. I think he was a shepherd who led with compassion, he seemed to have humility, and a deep commitment to the gospel of justice and mercy. I was immediately captured by him at the beginning of his papacy, not only by his choice of the name Francis, which was the first time ever that we've had a Francis, because that signaled he'd be a pope for the poor and he'd be a pope for the planet. Also early on in his papacy, his apostolic exhortation, the joy of the gospel, it was so positive. It was so inviting. You know, he spoke of evangelizers needing to be the people that would take on the smell of the sheep. That was a really appealing thing for me. And I think for the church, it was a call to the church that we had to be for the poor and everyone was included. Very inclusive, I would describe Francis. I think another important aspect of his papacy has been that idea of bringing everyone to the table. So that inclusion, like that famous quote of his, Who am I to judge? in reference to LGBTQI plus people, it was really quite significant, I think, for so, so many people. Having said this though, it's not all beer and skittles. Like I do feel Francis' failure to really engage with the question of women's ministry and place in the church. That has been a huge disappointment. And I do think it has contrasted sharply with a pope who called for synodality and championed an integology. Because if you're really fair to about an integral ecology, you've got to take that next step, I believe. But I don't really want to go down too much into that. But I think watching Frances' funeral, for example, which was beautiful, it was our church tradition on full display. But the absence of women in the whole ceremony was stark. And from my perspective as a faithful woman in the church, I did find it quite depressing, though not surprising, which in itself is sad. But despite this, I do have great affection for Francis. I think he has inspired millions with his joyful witness to the gospel. He has this loving concern for the poor and marginalized, his passionate care for all of creation, and his desire to move the Catholic Church closer to an inclusive vision of Jesus. It's been very much evident. I think it was Mary MacLeese who's recently spoke about him being a leaven for the church. And I thought that was a really interesting way to describe him. And so I suppose Francis was the leaven for the church. What we need to do now is to rise to the occasion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we live in a complex world and to achieve all that and raise us as much as we have without ever expecting perfection, we've certainly come a long way. And with that call, we're certainly being called to continue. Jackie, what's on your mind at this time?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it it is an interesting question at this point because there's been so much shared, and I've had the chance to do that. So I don't necessarily want to repeat it, but I feel like each day that we're processing this grief and the sadness and the realization that it's a time of great change and to reflect on his papacy and notice the details of what he's given us. There's so much. And I think he was somebody who was always in touch. And that's what struck me the first time I met him. And that was in May 2014. He had this warmth and this touch that was, I mean, I was speechless. It made me completely speechless. My parents were like, wow, that would be the best. I said, not really, but it did happen. So then when I got to meet him a second time, I had prepared myself for the fact that I would probably feel the same way and I had to be really ready. So that was really good to have a warm-up. And then I was honestly surprised to have the chance to meet him a couple more times after that. I really felt like I had had my fair share with Pope Francis. And I said the last time, I said, look, I think others should be doing this. And they were like, Yes, they are, but you should come too. So that was the last time when I met him with the Uluru statement from the heart. And I said, Well, I will go up last and just be there and not say too much and be present to him. And he was in a bit of pain at that time. And I think it was always amazing to me that no matter what he was going through, he was able to be such a radiant pope who was in touch with those around him. And what I think was such a clear signal that he was going to be different from any other pope in my lifetime, potentially, was the way that he modelled Jesus and laid the usual trappings of the church aside. Side from the very moment. For me, those signals and gestures to the human family have been profound from the start and they've been consistent. And I think that's why he's so greatly loved and well remembered by everybody. And his leadership was always, and some people described it as informal, but I actually think it was him being very relational. He was just present and relational rather than hiding behind any of the cloaks and the formality of the church. So for me, that really beautiful example of how to be truly relational, being present, listening, being ready for dialogue, speaking the truth, but always having a lightness of humor with him. That's a really sophisticated human being to be with. To put people at ease like he did, it was awesome. And I think for me, what was the game changer as well, because of course he'd taken the name Francis. We were anticipating something significant in the encyclical that came then with La Dato C, but we didn't know how substantive the teaching would be. We didn't realise how comprehensive it would be. We didn't know how much of an intellectual critique would be in it. It was way more. I had to really like prepare myself for something that might not deliver when I received it. I was like lucky enough to get an early copy because I had to be ready for the media when that was coming out on the 24th of May 10 years ago. But I was just blown away by the way his writing was so accessible, firstly, but also the way he embraced the diversity of the complexity of creation and held the constant thread of God's purview on it, that it was deeply interconnected all the time, always was, always will be. And therefore, for us to see the invisible interconnectedness that is God's work at play all the time, and he just drew attention to it. People will talk about his work on environment or climate. I never use that language. I find it to be far more wholesome and beautiful and profound and deep than an issue of the times. I hope our next Pope is uh Pope Francis too. And I think we need about 16 more of them to really dig into beautiful foundations he's laid for us in the way he lived it and in the way he implemented it and in the way that he's gifted it to us. So it's lifelong work for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks, Jackie. It's lovely to hear your reflections. And of course, as you just started talking about, this is the 10-year anniversary of his landmark encyclical La Dato Si or Care for Our Common Home. And just later this month, we celebrate that anniversary. And Francis brought a significant amount of energy to this conversation and to ecological conversion. It wasn't new, it was something that the church essentially had been using this language prior to Francis. But how has this fueled your own journey? So in your own space personally and professionally? What changed and what spaces have opened up in that journey for you now?
SPEAKER_02I was telling someone recently that Pope Francis's call to ecological conversion and to that whole sense of caring for a common home through LaDato C. It's basically shaped my whole work for the last 10 years. I mean, my background is primary education, religious education. So I was a teacher for a number of years, but then I've been working in the CEO for a number of years. But it was back in 2015, and I had the opportunity, I was doing some work with Catholic Mission, and I had the great privilege of working with a dear friend of Jackie's as well, the wonderful ecological theologian, Father Dennis Edwards. And he was part of a whole range of formation experiences around the country that was unpacking Lodato C. And I had the privilege of working very closely with Dennis in this. And so I was just hearing about Lodato C all the time. And as Jackie's already said, it's such a rich and beautiful document. My director at the time decided that we as a system of schools would respond very significantly to this encyclical. And so my work for the last 10 years has been working across our Catholic schools in the Wollongong Diocese, supporting them in their ecological conversion, responding to the call from Lodato Sea through formation planning, writing school environment management plans, all of these sort of ecological actions at a school level. So it has been significant for me. So I know it part of it when Pope Francis died, I was like, oh my God. I just refer to him all the time in the spirit of Laudardo Sea, in the spirit of Francis. That whole document has really fueled my professional journey, certainly my own personal ecological conversion journey. I think what has been so gratifying about all this is that it's given us an opportunity as a church to promote a really positive message and a positive face that encourages all of us to live out this ecological vocation that we've got and engage in what Francis has always said, the core business of caring for our planet. It's not an add-on, it's not something if we feel like this, it's actually centre of a faith response. And I think what Francis did in La Dardo C was very much put at front and centre of Catholic social teaching, which was remarkable in the past. I mean, I worked with Jackie through various things in Catholic earth care before La Dardo C came out. And I used to always sort of joke, you know, it was sort of seen as almost a fringe thing for your faith. If you felt like it, it was, you know, a bit there, greedy, bit lefty. But what Francis did was went, no, no, no, this is central to what we do. And that was just groundbreaking and completely life-changing for a faith perspective for myself and I think for the church. The theology that Francis just espoused in La Dato See, and then subsequently in La Dato Daum, which was basically, hey guys, you haven't done what you're supposed to do. We haven't done enough. But, you know, also his endorsement and promotion of the World Day of Prayer for the care of creation and the season of creation, which, you know, hopefully it will be raised to the level of a feast of creation. It's just so contemporary, it's just so inspiring, it's so authentic, relevant. It gives an impetus, I think, for our own journeys and for the church. It certainly has been fuel for the fire for me.
SPEAKER_01I wonder if there might be some of our listeners that hearing the concept of ecological conversion, that they don't even know what that means. How would you describe that?
SPEAKER_02Well, conversion is that turning around. It's having a change, a change of mind and heart towards something. And so it's the change of mind and heart towards how we live and be on this planet, how we relate to God, how we relate to each other, how we relate to creation. So ecological conversion, for my sense, is that change of mind and heart towards a different way of being. It's transformation.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Beth. Well, Jackie, how have you been fueled by La Dato C in these last years?
SPEAKER_00Well, picking up from what I was saying earlier, you know, once I'd read it, I realized how significantly substantial this contribution was. And essentially, I dedicated myself to promoting it in every way possible. So that began with launching it in numerous places all around the country. Wherever I was invited to do that, there were some fantastic events held. You know, the race course in Adelaide with Dennis Edwards, very memorable, in Broome at Notre Dame University, in Toowoomba, like it was all around the country that that launching was happening. So that's how it began. That energy in 2015 was significant. And I remember being away for my son's birthday that year as a result. And I thought, well, I won't do that again. But it was just because his birthday is the world day of prayer for creation. It is the beginning of the season of creation. And that year, La Dado C it launched. So I said to my mum, can you please come? I've got to make sure someone's there on my behalf for him. He was quite young, I don't think he even remembers it. But he might hear this podcast and go, Mum, you had that. But it began with launches. And for me, it was about really animating every sector of the church. So working, you know, at the local level with the parish, for example, in Like Hart, where Father Peter said, I think we should have a garden. And I was like, Yeah, of course you should have a garden. Let's get that going. And so, you know, at that micro level, obviously with schools, it's been a constant space of ecological conversion formation work and action. And Beth was talking about that in Wollongong. And that's the case for our 1600 schools across Australia. All the diocese, I think for me it was a really significant document because rather than it being a personal conversion program that we had been previously offering, it was about a whole systems way of shifting and changing and moving with it. Because the urgency, as much as it's a faith imperative, it's the urgency as well that means we haven't got the luxury of time anymore for people who are interested in personal conversion. It's like we've got to enact this as whole institutions. So working with whole dioceses, hospitals, social services, their big conferences, Catholic Health Australia, with universities, and of course doing things in a very novel way is important as well. Our sort of mantra back then was Live La Dart OC. That became a way of sort of putting it in common terms. But we did things like we had a radio show called Eco Faith on Airs, and there was always ecumenical work. That was a really beautiful example of that. Went for many years, and people were picking up on it outside Australia because of the radio waves travelling, so that was great. There's always interfaith work and it was significant and continues to be with La Dato Sea. I think as an initiative, it was important to offer formation programs. So that year we had a really significant formation programme with people coming from every diocese to Longview in South Australia. That was the name of the winery. We were like, well, that's very appropriate. So we had always, you know, at least three nights together. So that the magic of, you know, the three nights of transformation and that conversion being deep for each person. And the way I describe ecological conversion is a movement towards God with all creation. So our faith journey is always the movement towards God, and that's the call of any of our faith programs. But the difference here is that it's with creation in our consciousness, in our physical bodily sense of that. But I think the other significant thing that it really propelled me to do, which I'd already started up this global conversation, and we began this small group called the Global Catholic Climate Movement and connected with Pope Francis when he came close by in the Philippines to visit the victims of Typhoon Hyan. And he received our statement on climate and encouraged us to keep going. And so at that point, having worked for roughly, you know, 10 years in this space, I thought we've got to put everything we've learned in Australia, which was a lot, I have to say, with the work of Dennis Edwards, theology and all the practice work we'd been doing, and offer that into the global space where there hadn't been any coordinated ecological conversion work happening. And so I just catapulted everything I knew and every resource I had and every person that was willing to engage with it, to support with the social media or whatever it was that was needed to get that movement going strong. And it's phenomenal what's happened globally with that. And I'm so thrilled that everything we said yes to, whether it was okay, the Catholic Church hasn't taken up season of creation, let's really coordinate that now as an ecumenical movement. We got the website going, we invited everyone to a CC, all those things that are now just what we do, we really got behind. And we started campaigning on things like divesting from fossil fuels and raising awareness around all of that. We were able to bring Pope Francis to a whole range of those events. And I think one of the significant turning points for me was being able to work closely with Pope Francis in the COVID commission. I mean, not in my wildest dreams would I have thought as a lay woman mother in Australia, I would be working so closely with the Pope, with the Vatican Dicasterie, as a team member of the Dicastri with an email addressed to the Dicaster, working with the team and literally writing things that Pope Francis was then announcing. Seven Laddato C goals, planning a Laddato C action platform. All of that was, you know, happening. And what amazed me was that there was no pushback whatsoever. He just grabbed everything we offered and it went out like lightning. We weren't ready. We were like, oh, we didn't expect it to be announced straight away. So we've got to get organized around that quick. So it was phenomenal how I think one of the things I've been reflecting on is did we do enough? Could we have done more? Like, I know we've done heaps, and we kept saying to each other, he won't always be our pope. We won't always have him. We've got to make hay while the sun shines. It's that kind of thing where you just want to connect everything you can. So I guess I'm kind of in that reflective phase of, okay, I think a lot has happened. There's a lot to continue this incredible legacy with. I think what's emerged is great, but clearly we have such a long way to go to really embed and embody this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, one of the things that's I think that we haven't quite yet moved to, and it's the language that's embedded in LaDato C and some places have embodied or really taken this on is the integral ecology of all of the pieces or understanding the web of how things fit together and not just things in boxes or little projects that aren't connected. So this language of integral ecology again wasn't new, but Francis brought it into a really sharp focus. So what can it mean for us in these next steps as we're thinking about how far we've come but where we need to go?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it isn't new. You're dead right there. To be perfectly honest though, I think integral ecology, what is in La Dado Sea, is really just picking up on what Indigenous peoples' learnings and understandings, for us in Australia, our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, they've been living this for thousands of years.
SPEAKER_01Just a way of living that we're tuned ourselves out to somehow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we have in our country, I think, such a gift of this ancient wisdom that speaks so much to us today about how we should be caring for the planet, caring for the world around us. It's a wisdom I think speaks very much about that whole interconnectedness of everything in the web of life, which is what integral ecology is about, that interconnectedness. And so I think what Ladado C has done is to connect this ancient knowledge with a faith response that is very contemporary, it's relevant, it's authentic. In reading The Signs of the Times, Francis in La Dado C it's a map in a way, or a guidebook of navigating a way forward, but it's challenging, it's really challenging, I think. And it's challenging because it's asking us to consider the truth of who we are before God and what that means for how we operate in creation, and it calls for a whole renewed understanding of the world and what we do in it, and we're not the center of it all, that's for sure. We've got to move beyond this whole egocentrism of our importance. And I think the whole thing around integral ecology, it's really telling us that because everything is connected and the expression of our faith in God needs to reflect this. And so it's all about relationship. Everything is in relation to each other. It's relationship with God, relationship with our neighbor, the human and the non-human. It's like if we talk about the parable of the Good Samaritan, that question, who is my neighbor? It takes on a broader concept now for us. So it's embracing this earth spirituality, I think, that extends this sense of who neighbor is and the love of neighbor to include human sisters and brothers, but our animal friends, the plants, the moon, the stars, the rivers, the mountains, the sea, the expanding universe. But also, I think what the call of integral ecology, what we have to wrestle with, it then has to find its way into how we name God, how we pray, our liturgy. I don't think our liturgy and our theology on one level has caught up to this yet. In some aspects it has, and in some different contexts it has, but in our church on a Sunday, you don't always see the language of integrity practiced. That's right. And we have all the language too, like the incarnation. Oh, flesh, you know, the word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, like immersed God's self into creation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, all of creation, not just the human bit too.
SPEAKER_02And Dennis Edwards has beautiful writings, which I won't even attempt to talk about it, but there is so much that we need to be embracing and depthing for ourselves as a church, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Jackie, as we're on this continued journey of learning, unlearning, and relearning, what are the sticking points do you think for us as a community, 10 years on? Like how can we actually do better? Where are our blind spots still?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think we've been talking about them actually. I think the fact that the anthropocentric or human-centered, egocentric worldview is the dominant force in our lived realities of institutions and practices. I think that is so significant. And so people can take a position of this doesn't matter to me, this is not my business to do, or entitlement. Entitlement is a huge dimension that can really block and be the blind spot for people to see that they're so interconnected with everything else. And so the participation is called for from everyone. So I think that's one of the deep ones. And we need to remind each other of it all the time. I mean, Pope Francis did a great job of exemplifying that, but no one's perfect with this call. I think it's something we are all having to learn together at this time because we've become such a force on the planet as a species. That's a big one, the anthropocentric. I think another key dimension that's a blind spot or causes huge problems, and it's a combination always, it always is a bit more complex, isn't it? But when we look at the other root cause that Pope Francis alerts us to in La Data Sea, which is the techno-centric or technocratic way of viewing the world, this fragmented reductionist approach of seeing things in divided parts, seeing ourselves as isolated, the silos, so the big divides between self and others, the big divide between self and our creator, and the big divide between nature and humanity. These are false dichotomies. These dualisms serve us no more, but they are the predominant ways of thinking and seeing. So creation itself isn't fragmented. We're creating the fragmentation by the way we're thinking and seeing, and then enacting to further fragment. This is a profound thing for us to take stock of and to live that differently is the call. So it's no small thing, and that's why it can't happen quickly. That's why we suggested seven-year Hodata C planning, which is more than doing. Doing is the natural tendency. This is another big pitfall. Yes. We're bringing the same mindset of log frame action project management thinking to create lists of actions and then going, oh, we've been doing that, but we're still in this problem. We're still in this disastrous crisis, multiple crises, in fact. So there's a big shift that needs to happen around seeing our approach to the LaDato C action planning as something very different from what our first or initial responses may have been. So it's an invitation to go on a turning towards in a different way with that as well. So I see that everywhere. I think it's a great opportunity to become more deeply connected to our common home in every sense of that word of home, of belonging again to the habitats that we are in, to creation. And even when an institution says we're taking this on seven year journey, we will encounter resistance. We do encounter resistance. Everybody is open at that point in their mind or heart, but more particularly the block, because people can be open in their mind to think about it, open in their heart spiritually, it can open up. But if there isn't an open will, it doesn't happen. So it's deep, transformative, systems-based work. And I've always held that, but I think it's making more sense to people as we go on the journey because we want to just do something ourselves and go, we've done our part. That siloed approach is predominant. And we need to take others on the journey. I mean, look again at Jesus, look again at Pope Francis. Small groups of people that they engage with that have created changes around the world. That's where we start with the coalition of the willing to start it in our institutions and to take everyone else on the journey. Wherever they're at, Pope Francis modeled that encounter. Meet them where they're at. Don't bang them over the head with your agenda of the science or the this or the that or the fear or the anxiety. Meet the person where they're at. Meet each person. Invite them along. I think that invitation is something that we just got to keep getting better and better and better at and keep practicing. And that's something to learn again, to relearn again. What is the language that we're using to invite people on this gym? How are we doing it in this moment, in this time, that makes sense for where we're at? It changes all the time and we need to evolve with it, I think.
SPEAKER_01I think at this time in our human history, it's requiring of us a maturity that we've escaped from. The nature of being the individual rather than the community. We have to re-engage in that we can only do it together. And that takes the maturity to let go, to disengage with some things that are just for me. And so it's a challenging thing to do for all of us.
SPEAKER_00And grow as community. That's it. Reconnecting as community. We are an ecological community of church. And I think bishops are still yet to see themselves as bishops of an ecological community. I think teachers are still learning to see themselves as teachers of the ecological community that they're part of. And it goes on and on like that. And that was the gift of Pope Francis. He saw himself as a pope of God's creation. And we've not had that before. I think that was remarkable. And we haven't heard enough about that in all that we are hearing. I think when you look for it, you might find it. But we're still hearing that he is a pope of the people, the people's pope. I'm like, he's so much more. He's the Pope of creation.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna use that. I love that. And now we could talk for hours, but it's such a beautiful conversation. And I know this is kind of a cheeky question, but I mean it sincerely as well. Imagine that you had a way of impacting the hearts and minds of every global citizen, every person on the planet. What would you ask of them at this time?
SPEAKER_02I think for me, I mean, because the question is if you had a magic wand, I'd want to conjure up some leaders who are bold and compassionate, imaginative, inspiring, leaders who appeal to our better angels, who, you know, encourage the people in their particular nations or wherever they are to see that care for creation is integral. And it would be at the center of all policies, all government departments. It would basically tell us how society should operate. So their mission, these wonderful leaders that I would create, that I'd just get from somewhere, they'd be the ones that would really listen to the cries of the earth and the cries of the poor and then enable their communities to respond. I think profits, big business, all of that sense of wanting to be re-elected, if that is not what would be the driving force. I know it's a utopia. I'd also like to have a time machine in which I could go back and speak to the inventors of plastic, that whatever they created would be biodegradable and does no harm to our environment because the scourge of plastic is just off the charts. And it has been something that I have watched, like I'm 57 years old, and I have watched it just in my lifetime just go off the charts. So I'm on a time machine.
SPEAKER_01Well, he's hoping Beth. What about you, Jakey?
SPEAKER_00I know cheeky question, but if you had a magic wand, well, one of the things that I think when I started with Catholic Earthcare working with Bishop Twee, he spoke about the importance of working with people's imaginations, that this work involves that all the time. So that's been part of my intention for these many years. And one of the things that I like to encourage and suggest to people, because there's a lot of feeling of despair that even if I'm doing my part, even if our decision here as a group is to do this, what about all of this plastic and disaster that's happening, right? So it can be so antithetical to the whole motivation with hope and being the beacons of love in the world. So one of the examples I'd like to point them to is Ilya Pricotine, who was a prize winner, a Belgian chemist, and he studied equilibrium spark. He had a theorem on that. But one of his quotes I think helps us at this time. So my wand, my wish, would relate to this. So here's the quote when a system is far from equilibrium, small islands of coherence on a sea of chaos have the capacity to lift a system to a higher order. So what that says to me is that swimming upstream, feeling like you're going against the gradient, the dominant paradigms, the big concerns that we hold together, is that we can actually shift the story without the 100% human family doing it all at once by creating islands of coherence in our institutional realities, that we create places where integral ecology is experienced every day. So the work I'm doing with the research on integral ecology and formation with, for example, the Ursuline sisters around the globe or the formation programs with schools is to invite them to see that they, in each time they meet, each conversation we have can be an experience of integral ecology. So we design it like that. We experience the interconnectedness of each other's energy through that dialogue and listening process, through the next steps we discern to take. And we are creating an island of coherence as a school community, as a religious order, as a et cetera. So for me, that's the desire because it needs to be grounded. It needs to be in each place. And we're all called to be the leaders of this. And not everybody will do it at the same time, but the first stories of coherence that we can experience together and create and invite more and more people to and set up, I think we're more likely to get there.
SPEAKER_01That's beautiful, Jackie. Thank you. I think no better way to finish and round out our conversation today. But I see both of you as islands of coherence in your spaces. And may you continue to draw those islands out further into that sea of chaos. But thank you for being with us today and sharing your insights and your beautiful spirit with us today.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Gabriel. It's been a pleasure. Great to be with you, Bear.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful to be with you, Jackie and Gabrielle. It's been wonderful just to have this opportunity to just have a chat around this. Thank you. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_01The call of LaDato C as we celebrate its 10-year anniversary is urgent. Yet, as we heard Beth and Jackie share, this urgency is not so much about the doing more, but creating space for being more. It's a complete action response that requires of us our openness, our creativity to unlearn and relearn how we are in relationship with all of creation. LaDato C requires of us the commitment not unlike that of a 12-step program, which recognizes our humility before God and from that point on is about relationship and healing, self and community. That is our work of turning towards to become islands of coherence in the spirit of the Pope of Creation. So as you continue on your day, seeking to be and create islands of coherence with hospitality that is wide, to go and do likewise.
